By the mid-1980s, Susan Walker was looking at a country-music career that had generated famous songs, hundreds of road dates—and an American Express debt of roughly $90,000. The card had absorbed hotel rooms, airline tickets, meals and the daily expense of keeping Jerry Jeff Walker’s band moving. American Express eventually sued. The IRS was also demanding unpaid taxes. Jerry Jeff could joke about how astonishing it was that the company had allowed the balance to climb so high. Susan had to help determine how they were going to pay it. A decade earlier, Jerry Jeff had stood near the center of the Texas progressive-country movement. He recorded ¡Viva Terlingua! in Luckenbach, wrote “Mr. Bojangles,” championed songs by Guy Clark and surrounded himself with the musicians who helped make Austin an alternative to Nashville. During the busiest years, he released eight albums and played as many as 200 dates annually. Jerry Jeff later acknowledged that much of the pace had been sustained by alcohol and drugs. Susan saw the other machinery: invoices, taxes, contracts, hotel bills and a catalog whose ownership and availability depended upon decisions being made far from the stage. When record sales and performance fees weakened in the early 1980s, she did more than ask her husband to slow down. Susan began studying contract law, music publishing, copyright, booking practices and road logistics. She gathered the scattered pieces of a career that had been run as though the next concert would somehow settle the previous night’s bill. In 1986, the couple formed Tried & True Music. It was a record company, management office, booking operation and publishing center constructed around one client: Jerry Jeff Walker. They temporarily let the band go, and Jerry Jeff toured alone with his guitar. Because much of his older catalog was out of print, Tried & True assembled twenty-four songs as Gypsy Songman. The collection was issued on cassette, light enough to carry and simple enough to sell directly after solo performances. Rykodisc later picked it up for international CD distribution. Susan built the rest through paper newsletters, mailing lists and direct contact with listeners who became known as the Tried & True Warriors. The audience no longer waited for a major label to decide whether Jerry Jeff deserved another release. His family could record the music, tell fans it existed and place it directly into their hands. The songs still wandered through Luckenbach, Austin, New Orleans and Belize. Behind them, Susan kept the contracts current, the bookings organized and the catalog in print. By then, Jerry Jeff’s career no longer depended upon behaving like an outlaw. It depended upon envelopes leaving the office with the correct names and addresses.

“Scroll down to the end of the article to listen to music.”

SUSAN WALKER BUILT THE BUSINESS THAT JERRY JEFF’S FREEDOM REQUIRED

In 2018, Jerry Jeff Walker sat beside Susan and described the $90,000 American Express bill as though it belonged to an especially unruly road story.

The balance had grown through hotels, meals, plane tickets and the expense of moving musicians across the country. When someone asked how the card company had permitted it to happen, Jerry Jeff answered with the logic of a man accustomed to doors remaining open: they had simply continued letting him charge things.

He even proposed an advertisement as a way of paying the debt. American Express declined.

The audience laughed. Susan was sitting close enough to remember the years when the number had not been a punch line.

The Woman from the Texas Legislature

Susan Streit did not enter Jerry Jeff’s life as a music-business fixer.

She had graduated from the University of Texas and worked in the Texas legislature for Representative Charlie Wilson. Jerry Jeff was a New York-born drifter who had changed his name, hitchhiked across the country, written “Mr. Bojangles” and landed in Austin just as the city’s music was learning how little permission it needed from Nashville.

They met during the period surrounding ¡Viva Terlingua!, the 1973 album recorded in Luckenbach that helped define Jerry Jeff’s place in Texas music. The two appeared mismatched on paper and became inseparable in practice.

They married in Luckenbach on December 12, 1974. Their children, Jessie Jane and Django Cody, would grow up inside a household where the road was never entirely outside the front door.

Susan did not marry a finished legend. She married a working musician at the point when his appetite for experience was beginning to outrun the structure supporting it.

Two Hundred Nights and Eight Albums

Between 1972 and 1978, Jerry Jeff recorded eight albums and sometimes performed as many as 200 dates in a year.

The pace produced some of the most enduring work of the Texas country movement. It also required bands, agents, flights, rented rooms and money that arrived unevenly and departed quickly. The image of freedom depended upon a complicated business that Jerry Jeff was not naturally inclined to supervise.

He later said those years were greased by drugs and alcohol.

That admission explains part of the disorder, though not all of it. Musicians could fill halls and still lose track of what the tour cost. A record could sell while its artist remained uncertain about publishing, royalties or taxes. Every successful night produced another morning of receipts and obligations.

When the Lost Gonzo Band left to pursue its own career in 1977, Jerry Jeff assembled another group and continued moving. There was always another performance. The accumulating paperwork remained less visible than the stage.

The Bills Reach the House

The consequences arrived in forms that could not be sung away.

American Express sued over approximately $90,000 in road expenses. The IRS demanded a settlement for unpaid taxes. Major-label relationships were becoming less useful, and the changing market offered fewer venues at lower fees.

Susan helped contain the immediate financial and legal damage. Jerry Jeff completed his obligation to Elektra Records with Too Old to Change in 1979 and began moving toward a quieter life. He gave up drugs, whiskey, cigarettes and even red meat—a list suggesting how completely the previous habits had been tied together.

Sobriety addressed part of the problem. It did not create a working business.

The catalog was scattered across labels. Older albums became difficult to purchase. If a listener attended a Jerry Jeff Walker concert and wanted to take his music home, there were periods when the singer had few records available to sell.

Susan began learning how all of those pieces connected.

Learning the Work Nobody Applauded

By the middle of the 1980s, Susan was taking over the practical side of Jerry Jeff’s career.

She studied contracts and copyright. She learned music publishing, booking practices and the logistics of sending an artist onto the road without allowing the road to consume every dollar it produced. She organized material accumulated across roughly twenty years of recording and touring.

These were not supporting duties in the sentimental sense. They determined who controlled the songs, whether shows made money and whether another album could exist without a major company advancing the funds.

The contrast was useful. Jerry Jeff’s strength lay in turning encounters into songs and rooms into communities. Susan’s lay in keeping each commitment from colliding with the next one.

They did not need to make him less like Jerry Jeff Walker. They needed a system capable of surviving him.

A Company with One Client

In 1986, Jerry Jeff and Susan founded Tried & True Music.

The company handled recording, management, publishing, publicity and bookings. Its roster consisted of one artist. Susan served as the manager and operating center.

The decision arrived years before artist-owned labels and direct sales became ordinary parts of the music business. At the time, independence meant accepting jobs that established companies normally divided among separate departments. It also meant risking the couple’s own money.

They reduced the road operation. The band was released, and Jerry Jeff spent several years performing alone. A single man with a guitar cost less to transport than a full group. The arrangement also forced him to arrive prepared. He later observed that a singer could sometimes hide a difficult night inside a band. Alone, the first song ended and there was nobody else to carry the room.

Financial necessity changed the performance itself.

Twenty-Four Songs on One Cassette

Tried & True’s first practical problem was inventory. Jerry Jeff possessed a substantial catalog, but many earlier albums were unavailable.

The solution was Gypsy Songman, a twenty-four-song collection of newly recorded versions reaching back through his work. It was issued as a cassette.

The format was not glamorous. That was part of its value. Cassettes were compact, inexpensive to transport and easy to carry to solo shows. Jerry Jeff could perform, step offstage and offer listeners the songs the larger industry had allowed to disappear.

The cassette eventually attracted Rykodisc, which arranged international CD distribution. A temporary answer to an empty merchandise table had demonstrated that Tried & True could function as a genuine label.

The couple had not waited for a record executive to rediscover Jerry Jeff. They had rebuilt enough of his catalog to make rediscovery unnecessary.

The Tried & True Warriors

Susan understood that independence required more than owning recordings. It required knowing who still wanted them.

She developed a mailing list and sent newsletters containing tour information, family updates and stories from Jerry Jeff’s continuing travels. The listeners became known as the Tried & True Warriors.

The relationship was unusually direct for its time. Fans did not encounter Jerry Jeff only through radio programmers, advertisements or record-store displays. News arrived at their homes from the organization operated by his family.

Those paper newsletters created a durable audience network before websites, email lists and social media made direct communication routine. Tried & True later moved online, but the essential method remained the same: identify the people who cared, speak to them without an intermediary and give them a way to support the work.

Susan had converted loyalty into infrastructure.

A Career Returns to the Hall

In December 1988, Jerry Jeff assembled musicians at Gruene Hall to record another live album.

Live at Gruene Hall, released the following year, restored some of the looseness and communal energy associated with ¡Viva Terlingua!. Three of its singles appeared on the country chart, demand for concerts increased, and Jerry Jeff was able to form another touring group.

The recovery did not return him to the same system that had previously failed him. The new band worked inside the structure Susan had built.

Tried & True went on to release Navajo Rug, Hill Country Rain, Viva Luckenbach! and other records that documented Jerry Jeff’s movement away from youthful hell-raising and toward marriage, fatherhood, place and memory. The label preserved the later chapters that a major company might have regarded as commercially unnecessary.

Susan did not simply keep the old songs available. She made room for the man inside them to grow older.

What Tried & True Really Preserved

Jerry Jeff Walker is often remembered as a symbol of artistic freedom: the wandering songwriter, the unruly Texas nights, the music made among friends instead of corporate supervisors.

Susan Walker encountered the unpaid portion of that freedom.

She saw the taxes, the credit balance, the discontinued records and the shrinking offers. Then she learned the disciplines that could keep the work alive without sanding away the character that made it worth saving.

Years later, the Tried & True organization extended beyond releases and concert bookings. Its foundation supported education and healthcare for musicians. The small company built to serve one disordered career acquired responsibilities larger than its original purpose.

Jerry Jeff had once depended upon record companies to manufacture albums and decide when listeners could buy them. Under Susan’s system, a cassette could travel in the performer’s luggage, a newsletter could reach a farmhouse or suburban mailbox, and a fan could respond directly to the family operating the label.

Somewhere inside each envelope was the practical answer to an old outlaw problem: the music could remain free only after someone learned how to take care of it.

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When Jerry Reed brought his young family to Nashville, the reliable singing income did not yet come from him. It came from his wife, Priscilla Mitchell. They had married in 1959, shortly after Priscilla graduated from high school and while Jerry was serving in the Army. Their first daughter, Seidina, was born the following year. Jerry had already recorded for Capitol and written songs that other performers could use, but the label had dropped him when he entered military service. Talent had opened a few doors. It had not yet provided the family with a dependable life. After the Army, Jerry returned to the uncertain work available to a gifted musician without a secure career. He played sessions, placed songs where he could and continued developing the unorthodox guitar style that Chet Atkins recognized long before the public did. Some of his compositions reached radio through other voices. His own records remained another matter. Priscilla went into Nashville’s studios. She had sung professionally in Georgia before the marriage and knew how to shape a harmony around another performer. Background singing rarely placed her name on the label, but it produced paying work. Jerry later acknowledged that Priscilla’s studio singing kept the Reeds going during those early Nashville years. Then, in 1965, the wife working quietly behind other singers stepped forward on a record of her own. Mercury paired Priscilla with Roy Drusky for “Yes, Mr. Peters,” an unusually constructed cheating song presented as a telephone conversation. Priscilla played the woman calling her married lover. Drusky disguised his answers so that anyone nearby would believe he was discussing business with a man named Mr. Peters. The performance depended on Priscilla sounding intimate without becoming theatrical. Her calm delivery allowed the two conversations—one genuine, one invented—to exist at the same time. Country audiences understood it immediately. “Yes, Mr. Peters” reached No. 1 and remained there for two weeks. At that point, Priscilla Mitchell had achieved a chart position Jerry Reed had spent years pursuing. He had been signed to RCA by Chet Atkins, but his first album for the label would not arrive until 1967. “Guitar Man,” the Elvis Presley sessions, “Amos Moses,” “When You’re Hot, You’re Hot” and Smokey and the Bandit still lay ahead. Priscilla continued recording with Drusky and released solo material, but her public career gradually narrowed as Jerry’s expanded. Their second daughter, Lottie, arrived in 1970, just as his records began turning him into one of country music’s most recognizable personalities. In later years, Priscilla rejoined him professionally, singing background vocals and playing keyboards on the road. Their marriage lasted forty-nine years, ending only with Jerry’s death in 2008. By then, his fame had grown large enough to rearrange the family history around him. Priscilla was increasingly remembered as Jerry Reed’s wife, while her own No. 1 record became a line buried inside his biography. The chronology tells a less convenient story. Before Nashville made Jerry the name worth remembering, Priscilla Mitchell had already reached the top of the country chart—and he was still trying to find his way there.

Waylon Jennings was nineteen when his first son was born. Fifteen years later, Terry Jennings left school and joined him on the road. Terry did not enter the protected side of a famous musician’s family. He started by selling merchandise, then became a drum technician and gradually took responsibility for parts of his father’s touring operation. While other teenagers learned how to live apart from their parents, Terry moved directly into Waylon’s adult world. The two were separated by only nineteen years. On the road, that small distance narrowed further. Waylon was becoming one of country music’s most important performers, but the touring life around him offered few ordinary rules for fatherhood. The buses ran through the night. Shows, card games and after-hours gatherings blended into one another. Drugs, women and the demands of keeping a rapidly expanding career moving were always close. Terry later described the relationship as more like brothers than father and son. The description contained affection, but it also revealed what had gone missing. Waylon could be generous, funny and fiercely loving. He was not consistently the adult shielding his teenage son from the life around him. Terry participated in that life himself. He used drugs, witnessed his father’s dependence grow and remained close enough to see how the public “outlaw” image was being built from private habits that were becoming increasingly destructive. He did not observe Waylon’s most chaotic years from a family home. He helped load them into the next town. Yet Terry resisted reducing his father to those failures. He believed Waylon had pursued music partly to build a better life for his children, even when the pursuit kept him away from them. The explanation did not erase the damage. It allowed Terry to hold two versions of his father at once: the man who loved his family and the man whose way of providing exposed his oldest son to dangers a father ordinarily tries to keep away. Years after Waylon quit drugs, father and son were flying to a Dallas Cowboys game when the idea of a book arose. Terry mentioned writing about the years they had shared. Waylon encouraged him. He said Terry was practically the only person who had been there from the beginning and was not afraid to tell the truth. Terry put the idea aside. After Waylon died in 2002, he returned to it, eventually publishing Waylon: Tales of My Outlaw Dad. The boy who entered his father’s road crew at fifteen had spent years too close to the legend to believe it completely. That became his final responsibility. Waylon left him neither a spotless hero to defend nor a villain to punish, but permission to describe the distance between the man audiences celebrated and the father Terry actually knew.

When Ben Haggard was six years old, he found a Fender Telecaster Deluxe stored in a closet at the family home and carried it to his father. The boy did not know the guitar’s history. He only knew that he wanted it. Merle Haggard had just returned from the road when Ben asked if the instrument could be his. Merle said yes. The Telecaster had belonged to Roy Nichols, the guitarist whose sharp, fluid playing helped shape Merle’s greatest records. For more than twenty years, Nichols stood inside the Strangers and supplied the electric lines running through songs such as “Mama Tried,” “Working Man Blues” and “The Bottle Let Me Down.” Merle later called him the finest guitarist he had ever known closely. None of that weight meant anything to the six-year-old carrying the instrument away. Ben began teaching himself. He played privately for years, often in the garage, until his mother Theresa heard enough through the walls to tell Merle he ought to listen. By fifteen, Ben’s playing had moved from the garage into his father’s band. Merle did not describe the decision as a favor to his youngest son. He said Ben was already playing better than some professionals. The teenager finished high school early and began traveling with the Strangers, doing schoolwork while learning the timing of a road band whose members had been performing together longer than he had been alive. At seventeen, Ben was playing on Merle’s records. His father compared the boy’s instincts to Roy Nichols, Grady Martin, Reggie Young and James Burton—men whose guitar work had defined entire periods of American music. Merle also admitted that watching Ben play was “knockin’ his old daddy plum out.” This was late fatherhood for Merle. He was fifty-five when Ben was born and had already lived through prison, fame, four marriages and decades of touring. In 2003, with Ben still a child and his daughter Jenessa entering her teens, Merle called the family a second chance at being a father. The guitar from the closet followed that second chance onto the road. By Merle’s final years, Ben was standing only a few feet away, playing the lead lines once carried by the older men his father revered. After Merle died in 2016, Ben continued performing those songs with members of the Strangers.

You Missed

By the mid-1980s, Susan Walker was looking at a country-music career that had generated famous songs, hundreds of road dates—and an American Express debt of roughly $90,000. The card had absorbed hotel rooms, airline tickets, meals and the daily expense of keeping Jerry Jeff Walker’s band moving. American Express eventually sued. The IRS was also demanding unpaid taxes. Jerry Jeff could joke about how astonishing it was that the company had allowed the balance to climb so high. Susan had to help determine how they were going to pay it. A decade earlier, Jerry Jeff had stood near the center of the Texas progressive-country movement. He recorded ¡Viva Terlingua! in Luckenbach, wrote “Mr. Bojangles,” championed songs by Guy Clark and surrounded himself with the musicians who helped make Austin an alternative to Nashville. During the busiest years, he released eight albums and played as many as 200 dates annually. Jerry Jeff later acknowledged that much of the pace had been sustained by alcohol and drugs. Susan saw the other machinery: invoices, taxes, contracts, hotel bills and a catalog whose ownership and availability depended upon decisions being made far from the stage. When record sales and performance fees weakened in the early 1980s, she did more than ask her husband to slow down. Susan began studying contract law, music publishing, copyright, booking practices and road logistics. She gathered the scattered pieces of a career that had been run as though the next concert would somehow settle the previous night’s bill. In 1986, the couple formed Tried & True Music. It was a record company, management office, booking operation and publishing center constructed around one client: Jerry Jeff Walker. They temporarily let the band go, and Jerry Jeff toured alone with his guitar. Because much of his older catalog was out of print, Tried & True assembled twenty-four songs as Gypsy Songman. The collection was issued on cassette, light enough to carry and simple enough to sell directly after solo performances. Rykodisc later picked it up for international CD distribution. Susan built the rest through paper newsletters, mailing lists and direct contact with listeners who became known as the Tried & True Warriors. The audience no longer waited for a major label to decide whether Jerry Jeff deserved another release. His family could record the music, tell fans it existed and place it directly into their hands. The songs still wandered through Luckenbach, Austin, New Orleans and Belize. Behind them, Susan kept the contracts current, the bookings organized and the catalog in print. By then, Jerry Jeff’s career no longer depended upon behaving like an outlaw. It depended upon envelopes leaving the office with the correct names and addresses.

George Jefferson Remained Offscreen for Two Years Because the Right Actor Would Not Leave the Stage In 1971, Norman Lear offered Sherman Hemsley the role of George Jefferson on All in the Family. Hemsley said he could not take it. He was performing in Purlie, the Broadway musical that had given him his first major professional break. Before that, Hemsley had worked nights at the post office while studying acting and pursuing stage roles during the day. Walking away from Purlie for a television character who might disappear after a few episodes would have meant abandoning the commitment that had finally moved him out of the mailroom. Lear did something unusual. He waited. Louise Jefferson and her son Lionel moved next door to Archie and Edith Bunker, but George remained largely beyond the camera. The scripts mentioned him, allowing viewers to form an impression of Louise’s stubborn, ambitious husband without seeing his face. When the show needed another Jefferson man to confront Archie, Lear’s team created George’s brother Henry, played by Mel Stewart. The substitute character solved the immediate problem without giving away the role. Nearly two years later, Hemsley became available. He entered All in the Family as a dry cleaner determined to answer Archie Bunker’s bigotry with equal force. The small, private actor who favored casual clothes offscreen constructed a man who seemed to occupy more space than anyone else in the room. George’s physical life developed through rehearsal. Hemsley drew on men he had known in South Philadelphia—the posture of someone who needed the sidewalk to understand that he mattered. During one apartment-building sequence, the cast repeated an entrance seven or eight times. On a later take, Hemsley began clowning, adding an exaggerated strut. That was the take the producers kept. George and Louise moved from Queens to Manhattan in 1975, carrying their marriage, arguments and dry-cleaning fortune into The Jeffersons. The series lasted eleven seasons, making Hemsley one of the most visible Black television stars in America and presenting a prosperous Black family at a scale network audiences had rarely seen. The role looked inevitable in retrospect. It was not. George Jefferson reached television because one actor honored the stage work already in his hands—and one producer believed the character could survive long enough without a face to wait for him.

When Jerry Reed brought his young family to Nashville, the reliable singing income did not yet come from him. It came from his wife, Priscilla Mitchell. They had married in 1959, shortly after Priscilla graduated from high school and while Jerry was serving in the Army. Their first daughter, Seidina, was born the following year. Jerry had already recorded for Capitol and written songs that other performers could use, but the label had dropped him when he entered military service. Talent had opened a few doors. It had not yet provided the family with a dependable life. After the Army, Jerry returned to the uncertain work available to a gifted musician without a secure career. He played sessions, placed songs where he could and continued developing the unorthodox guitar style that Chet Atkins recognized long before the public did. Some of his compositions reached radio through other voices. His own records remained another matter. Priscilla went into Nashville’s studios. She had sung professionally in Georgia before the marriage and knew how to shape a harmony around another performer. Background singing rarely placed her name on the label, but it produced paying work. Jerry later acknowledged that Priscilla’s studio singing kept the Reeds going during those early Nashville years. Then, in 1965, the wife working quietly behind other singers stepped forward on a record of her own. Mercury paired Priscilla with Roy Drusky for “Yes, Mr. Peters,” an unusually constructed cheating song presented as a telephone conversation. Priscilla played the woman calling her married lover. Drusky disguised his answers so that anyone nearby would believe he was discussing business with a man named Mr. Peters. The performance depended on Priscilla sounding intimate without becoming theatrical. Her calm delivery allowed the two conversations—one genuine, one invented—to exist at the same time. Country audiences understood it immediately. “Yes, Mr. Peters” reached No. 1 and remained there for two weeks. At that point, Priscilla Mitchell had achieved a chart position Jerry Reed had spent years pursuing. He had been signed to RCA by Chet Atkins, but his first album for the label would not arrive until 1967. “Guitar Man,” the Elvis Presley sessions, “Amos Moses,” “When You’re Hot, You’re Hot” and Smokey and the Bandit still lay ahead. Priscilla continued recording with Drusky and released solo material, but her public career gradually narrowed as Jerry’s expanded. Their second daughter, Lottie, arrived in 1970, just as his records began turning him into one of country music’s most recognizable personalities. In later years, Priscilla rejoined him professionally, singing background vocals and playing keyboards on the road. Their marriage lasted forty-nine years, ending only with Jerry’s death in 2008. By then, his fame had grown large enough to rearrange the family history around him. Priscilla was increasingly remembered as Jerry Reed’s wife, while her own No. 1 record became a line buried inside his biography. The chronology tells a less convenient story. Before Nashville made Jerry the name worth remembering, Priscilla Mitchell had already reached the top of the country chart—and he was still trying to find his way there.

Waylon Jennings was nineteen when his first son was born. Fifteen years later, Terry Jennings left school and joined him on the road. Terry did not enter the protected side of a famous musician’s family. He started by selling merchandise, then became a drum technician and gradually took responsibility for parts of his father’s touring operation. While other teenagers learned how to live apart from their parents, Terry moved directly into Waylon’s adult world. The two were separated by only nineteen years. On the road, that small distance narrowed further. Waylon was becoming one of country music’s most important performers, but the touring life around him offered few ordinary rules for fatherhood. The buses ran through the night. Shows, card games and after-hours gatherings blended into one another. Drugs, women and the demands of keeping a rapidly expanding career moving were always close. Terry later described the relationship as more like brothers than father and son. The description contained affection, but it also revealed what had gone missing. Waylon could be generous, funny and fiercely loving. He was not consistently the adult shielding his teenage son from the life around him. Terry participated in that life himself. He used drugs, witnessed his father’s dependence grow and remained close enough to see how the public “outlaw” image was being built from private habits that were becoming increasingly destructive. He did not observe Waylon’s most chaotic years from a family home. He helped load them into the next town. Yet Terry resisted reducing his father to those failures. He believed Waylon had pursued music partly to build a better life for his children, even when the pursuit kept him away from them. The explanation did not erase the damage. It allowed Terry to hold two versions of his father at once: the man who loved his family and the man whose way of providing exposed his oldest son to dangers a father ordinarily tries to keep away. Years after Waylon quit drugs, father and son were flying to a Dallas Cowboys game when the idea of a book arose. Terry mentioned writing about the years they had shared. Waylon encouraged him. He said Terry was practically the only person who had been there from the beginning and was not afraid to tell the truth. Terry put the idea aside. After Waylon died in 2002, he returned to it, eventually publishing Waylon: Tales of My Outlaw Dad. The boy who entered his father’s road crew at fifteen had spent years too close to the legend to believe it completely. That became his final responsibility. Waylon left him neither a spotless hero to defend nor a villain to punish, but permission to describe the distance between the man audiences celebrated and the father Terry actually knew.